My Journey

It's Over before it could begin

willowwolfe — Sun, 25 Jan 2009 17:55:53 GMT

No details will be given, the story will not be retold ` I just want the pain to end.
I am no longer a part of CJ Forsgren's life and the Kindred is dead.
I hope that no other friendships will be affected and that the two of us can learn from this and go on to become better and wiser individuals.

Ohh Play a virtual HAPI drum!!

willowwolfe — Tue, 20 Jan 2009 19:16:52 GMT

http://www.hapitones.com/virtual-hapi-drum-e-major.html

$375... but I WANT ONE!!! Gods this woudl be great to play at PantheaCon!! Or any day for that matter!

Has anyone read this book?

willowwolfe — Sat, 17 Jan 2009 18:46:10 GMT

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270305578138

A mad scientist at work

willowwolfe — Sat, 17 Jan 2009 17:19:35 GMT

Hauk during the creation of Christine's Monkey/Pony for Yule...
SOme backgound ~ watch this video haha!

PICT0039.JPG

Quickpost this image to Myspace, Digg, Facebook, and others!

Woot I found one!

willowwolfe — Sat, 17 Jan 2009 07:36:23 GMT

WHO NEEDS A TEDDY BEAR WHEN YOU HAVE THIS GUY TO CUDDLE?!

Now I REALLY feel dumb

willowwolfe — Thu, 15 Jan 2009 18:47:10 GMT

You are 60% Smarter than a fifth grader.

You got mare than half right, atleast. It's 50% for your information, since you're still stupid. A fifthgrader is smarter than you.

are you smarter than a fifth grader?
Take More Quizzes

Talk about FUN!!! Viking Ice breaker game!

willowwolfe — Wed, 14 Jan 2009 16:32:06 GMT

http://www.nitrome.com/games/icebreaker/

Writer's Block: Tricky Questions

willowwolfe — Wed, 14 Jan 2009 03:07:37 GMT

Shoulders back, deep breath and open ears...

Yes, there ARE Heathens in the bible belt Virginia

willowwolfe — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 07:32:07 GMT

I have an online friend from one of the Yahoo groups I subscribe to that I have always learned so much from - Aundrea.

Well, I had not realized that she lives quite close to my son!! So, I emailed her yesterday and we made plans to meet at Starbucks (Yep, Heathens AND Starbucks - OK is not looking too bad afterall)

I drove the 48 miles to Yukon and after geting turned around and lost in town (I miss my Magellan) I found the spot about 30 minutes late and she was still there...

We had a WONDERFUL visit! She is even more knowledgeable that she lets on in her posts!! I was so impressed with her views and wisdom that I hardly spoke and spent alot of time just absorbing all she had to tell me!

Well, I did tell my own tales, but hers were much more interesting! We had so much in common regarding our spiritual experiences and views that I felt right at home. I had been feeling quite isolated here in the house with the grandbabies... I was trying hard to be descrete (Yes, I can be tactful when necessary!) so that my sons church going friends would not be to shocked that his mom was not a monotheist christian. I was prepared to be honest about my beliefs but not blatant - which is difficult for me as I tend to stick out in a crowd.

I did quite well, and even attended a gathering at my sons church with his wife and the kids. It seemed odd to watch those folks and realize how misinformed they were and even happy about their ignorance of the facts of much of their own history. But - each of us has our own journey...

My visit with Aundrea confirmed so many things that are happening in my life right now! She was used by the Gods in a mighty way today and many of her words served to confirm things I have yet to do and the reasons for things as they have been... Urd, Verdandi....

So many Heathens could gain from seeing the similarities we all have rather than the differences. Our folk are so busy debating lore and practices that they forget we all have a job to do and a tribe to serve! It is our commonalities that bring us all close enough to fight!

GRRR, I just wanna tear down our walls sometimes! There are folkish and traditional folks who have things to learn from and universalists that have things to teach... we each have something to offer the other! It is almost as if some are too uncertain and lack confidence in their own path to hear what another has to say without picking it all apart!

Don't get me wrong, I have my own set of beliefs and although I am always open to change and learning more, I feel God-led to be where I am right now... Verdandi...

I believe in the right of all people to follow their own path and as long as it is done without hypocracy, they can worship their Big Toe and gain my respect (if nothing else than for their inventiveness)

I do not respect any system that believe themselves to be superior by virtue of their sex, race, creed, or nation. But I understand the ways of those who have pride in those very things that set them apart. It is that very right and ability to be an individual that makes us Americans, but it is the Kindred, the Clan, the Tribe that makes us Heathens!! We need one another in ways that go far beyond the surface of our affection for one another or the ability to blot and sumble together. I see our identity deeply imbedded in the ideas of the Kindred and Hearth.

Anyway.... That is all for another blog - someday...

Life in the boonies

willowwolfe — Mon, 05 Jan 2009 17:54:28 GMT

Well, Hydro is interesting.. if only it would get over 20 degrees we could go outside more! We did haveone day that got up to almost 70 ~ then back to freezing ~ wierd... now I know what they mean when they say that if you dont like the weather, wait 15 minutes.

On our one warm day, I took my grandson Michael out for a short walk around the neighborhood, but I have a sore knee (more on that in a minute) so walking may not have been a good idea. We had fun, I kept him out of the road and he got to bark at the neighbors hound dogs.

There is a babygate infront of the kitchen doorway to (haha) keep the kids and dogs out of the kitchen. I think I have discovered that it is most effective to keep grandmas out! Yep, graceful grandma did the end-over-end with the kiddie gate. I landed on my knee that I had cut open a few weeks ago when I fell over the firepit in the desert. (is it just me or is there a pattern here>?)
So, I ordered a new kiddie gate that has a door that is easily opened for an adult and is EXTRA tall so it actually keeps out kids and dogs!! It might have saved the loaf of bread the dogs ate yesterday ~ and my knee! It should be in tomorrow ~ woot!

I am feeling a bit distanced from all of you out there in Cali... I still have not heard all the news from the mighty New Years party at the Hauks nest. And emails have been short and to the point from CJ. I sent out my sons number so I could get calls but have only heard from my buddy Michele ~ which was awesome! Darling hubby has called of course, and he is lonely as expected. I know he misses me but also misses having CJ over to drink a beer with and visit. He has really taken a shine to that young man!

Well, just an update and a plea for my kin to stay in contact... Miss you all!

The bounty of Family

willowwolfe — Sat, 03 Jan 2009 04:24:58 GMT

Well after a flight from Hel ~ I made it to Hydro, Oklahoma (halfway between dirt and nowhere). The grandbabies have just gone to bed, the house is picked up and the dishes are done... Peace Reins supreme (for the moment)

My poor daughter-in-law has rings under her eyes and her beautiful hair is pulled back in a simple ponytail as she sinks into the plush leather couch in her sweats. This is the girl who would never go outside without makeup or her hair done! But if you watch her closely as little chubby Kamrin gives her a toothy grin ~ the glow in her eyes makes her more beautiful than she has ever been!
Michael (Bubba) is a small human destruction crew with the sweetest smile and the loudest yell I have ever heard! =) All I can do is laugh and remind my son that he was worse and that Bubba is my revenge!

My son Jimmy has done a 180 degree turn around in his life! He works for a prominent company nearby, has the respect of his co-workers, and recently got a promotion that he had no idea he was even in the running for. This is the first time I have seen the little house they bought ~ their very first. It might be under 1000 sq ft and 50 years old, but it is a mansion if you consider how much love fills it. This was once the boy who lied and stole his way through his teens ~ making me wonder (more than once) where the little boy I used to cuddle went. Just like all my kids, I had faith that he had a good heart in there somewhere... I just hoped he recovered it before he forgot where he left it.
Well, he found it in the arms of his first born son, and it grew even larger when he looked into the eyes of his second born less than a year later. He and his wife had dated back in Junior High School and she was always his first love ~ and his last.

They are a family,,, in all the ways that the word fills ones life. I hope that they both know how proud I am of them!

I was never a perfect mother ~ and there were times I was a horrible mother, but I pray they always knew I loved them more than anything. To see my children become adults ~ responsible, loving and caring... makes my life so complete! I give them all the credit for overcoming any negative thing I ever gave them, taking all the positive I could offer, and go beyond it all and become their own person ~ one who can look in the mirrow and like what they see, Without blame, without excuses, execpting the past as a springboard to become all they can be.
I offer these words to ALL my kids ~ and hope they all feel it one day.

Maintenence

willowwolfe — Sat, 27 Dec 2008 18:26:33 GMT

So, as I have suspended all spinning since Mothers Night (no easy feat for me), I have decided now it the time to do some cleaning, waxing, and greasing of all my wheels.
Now this may not seem like too much fun for many ~ but the engineering in creating a spinning wheel facinates me and this is a chance to take them all apart and wonder at the workings!
THis article may explain it better! Don't fall asleep now!

Ask different spinners and you will get different opinions on which is best, so let's start with the difference. A single drive wheel has the drive band going once around the wheel and the flyer and has a separate brake on the bobbin or flyer. This is also known as the Scotch tension braking system. A double drive wheel uses a drive band that is longer, as it goes around the wheel, to the bobbin, back around the wheel again then around a whorl on the flyer. Some wheels come one way, others the other way, sometimes you can get both (kind of...). Sometimes you get to choose (Ashford Traveller and Traditional). So what is the big deal?

Most beginners will find the Scotch tension system easier to understand and master. Both the brake and the drive band can be adjusted separately so control of twist and take-up are easier. The double drive system provides a firmer, more consistent yarn and with normally higher ratio options. If the wheel you like is a double drive wheel, see if it comes with a Scotch tension single drive option; this gives you freedom to use both.

The Technical Information - Single vs. Double drive

Single drive wheels have the drive band going around the wheel one time. The drive band will then go around the drive pulley on the flyer (some manufacturers have the band drive the bobbin, not the flyer; Ashford, Lendrum, Majacraft and Kromski Prelude drive the flyer, Louet drives the bobbin). The rotation of the wheel causes the flyer to rotate and depending on the difference between the diameter of the wheel and the diameter of the flyer pulleys, you develop a ratio between the two. A brake band (sometimes called Scotch tension) with a spring attached, is placed over a pulley built into the bobbin (this brake is on the flyer for Louet wheels) and the tension is adjusted. This information applies to nearly all single drive spinning wheels built today, regardless of brand.

Double drive wheels also use one drive band but it goes around the wheel twice (you make a double loop of the drive band to do this). At the flyer, the two loops of the drive band do two different things: one of the loops will go around the whorl (the whorl will have one or two grooves of different diameters - your ratios are established here with the whorl. Whorls are located at the rear of the flyer and are removable so you can change the ratio of the drive; the whorl must be removed to change the bobbin); the other loop will go around a pulley located at the end of the bobbin. This information applies to nearly all double drive spinning wheels built today, regardless of brand.

How they work

Spinning takes place in the following manner: the main wheel drives (rotates) the flyer/bobbin by means of the drive band. Tension on the drive band is adjustable and you set it to make sure there is no slip at the flyer/bobbin. You treadle, the wheel turns, the flyer and bobbin rotates) and twist is imparted to the fibers in your hand. In order for the yarn to get on the bobbin automatically, there must be, from time to time, a change in the speed of the bobbin. It must: slow down (be braked) on single drive wheels; speed up on double drive wheels - so the flyer can facilitate wrapping the yarn around the bobbin. This is where the two methods diverge.

A single drive wheel has a separate dedicated band, a brake band (Scotch tension), around the bobbin or flyer . In order to facilitate the accumulation of yarn on the bobbin, the bobbin or flyer is "braked," or retarded, when: 1 - you have the proper tension on the brake band; 2 - you allow the twisted yarn in your hand to be pulled into the orifice of the flyer (the "take up"). On a single drive wheel, you have a way to adjust tension on the drive band (not really needed if using an elastic band) and a separate adjustment for the brake band/take-up control; adding tension to the brake increases the pulling force of the yarn from your hand. Ideally your want a gentle pull that quickly gets the yarn on the bobbin.

On a double drive wheel, there is no separate brake band but rather one of the loops of the drive band will cause the bobbin to rotate while also slipping during spinning while the other loop drives the flyer. The shape of the whorl grooves (V-shaped) results in positive drive of the flyer all the time while a different shape of the groove on the bobbin pulley (U-shaped) allows "slippage" of the bobbin while you add twist to your fiber. While spinning, the bobbin slips on the drive band to allow the bobbin to rotate in sync with the flyer. When you allow the yarn to be pulled into the orifice you are letting the bobbin gain speed (less sliipping) in relationship to the flyer arms causing yarn to be wrapped on the bobbin. This all works if: 1- your tension is set correctly; 2 - you allow the twisted yarn in your hand to be pulled into the orifice of the flyer. The tension adjustment affects both the drive of the flyer and the slipping of the bobbin, so one adjustment must result in good performance of drive and take-up. This is not difficult to do. Also note that for a double drive flyer to effect take-up the pulley on the bobbin must be smaller than the whorl. Never match a small whorl with a bobbin pulley that is larger.

A - Wheel
B - Drive Band
C - Flyer assembly
D - Maiden
E - Bearings
F - Tension Screw
G - Treadle
H - Footman
I - Treadle connection
J - Treadle bar
K - Table
L - Distaff

In addition to all this fun and science ~ I get to rub down rare woods and watch the grain glow as the years pass. And drool as I wait for 12th night!!!

KIDS!!! I should of had puppies instead

willowwolfe — Thu, 25 Dec 2008 08:01:44 GMT

SO, here I am ~ my first holiday time with all my kids grown and gone. I have been a bit down about them all being so far away but I think I am cured now!

I have 7 kids...

One in Reno (the eldest son), with a wife and 2 kids (and one daughter in California)and his youngest brother (which makes 2 there) The youngest never calls me and has deleted me from his MySpace. I asked him (via email) why he never lets me know how he is or whats up... He responds that he is an adult and doesnt need me looking over his shoulder and doesnt need to ask me for permission to do what ever he wants! He then closes with telling me to let him live his life! WTF!? I have never heard from him ONCE since he moved to Reno with his big brother 3 months ago!! And he is the single child that nearly drove me over the deep end with his disabilites and issues! (sigh)

The eldest one used to call me all the time and we were very close. He would talk to me and ask me for advice about life (too often sometimes!). Nothing has really occured that would change things, but he rarely calls and has little to say when I hear from him.

Number 2 son goes through periods where he hardly speaks to me and lives here in California. He is currently speaking to me haha. He is an angry and violent tempered young man. My husband has written him off over the various times he has hurt us both. I still love him dearly and keep up with how he is ~ seeing him on occasion. He has his moments where he lets his walls down and I can see the boy I used to know and the man I know he can be. I stay in contact with his daughter and her mother (who will always be a member of our family) His daughter is the one grandchild I see the most.

Number 3 son calls me nearly every day and lives in NC with his wife and newborn baby. We struggled when he was a teen as he is too much like me. But now as adults we have found common ground and I appreciate him so much!

Number 4 son is in Oklahoma with his wife and 2 boys. He has made a 180 degree turn-around in his life for his young family. I am so proud of him and we speak often. I know he misses family and home out here ~ but the place he is now offers a great career and a nice place to raise the kids...

My daughter is married to a young man (mormon) and has found that his family has absorbed her life. She struggles with his constant unemployment and has 3 wonderful children. She is a wonderful mother and I hear from her often. I am fortunate that she just moved back here from Utah.

My number 5 son is a great source of sadness for me. He is living a life that looks as if he has forgotten every value or lesson we ever tried to teach him. I expect to hear he is in jail at any time. In the meantime he maintains an ongoing photo album on MySpace titled ~ new parties.... It is the only place I can see him anymore as he is always out and about. And when I do see him, he wants something or steals something... He sometimes surprises me and comes through just when we need him, like when we moved recently. I'd like to think he helped because he cared and not for the money his dad paid him...

With all the pain and worry, I love everyone of them... but if I had known then ~ what I would have gone through from the time they were born ~ I probably would do it all over again... I think I am a glutton for punishment.

IT's ALMOST new years!! Isn't Love GRAND!

willowwolfe — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 23:51:27 GMT

Baby its COLD outside

willowwolfe — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 01:04:39 GMT

Heres hoping that everyone is warm and cozy!! Especially all my friends I left in the High Desert here in California!! They have snow and lots of it - from what I hear!!

I am sitting here ~ wet and warm, listening to the windchimes and running the gas stove because I can't figure out how to turn on the wall furnace (I have been using wood heat for over 20 years now ~ until I moved)

I have one present wrapped, 3 boxes to ship, and lots more wrapping to go!

Our new Kindred (CJ and I) The 9 Worlds Kindred, will be holding our opening to the Yule season on Sunday, unless the weather continues to be insane which means we will miss the Heimdalls Lur Yule celebration and hold ours on Friday night or Saturday.

This new house poses some real adjustments, less space so there are still things in boxes, jerry rigged electrical so I can't run a space heater and the microwave or POOF ~ no power! No 210 so the dryer is out of the question, clothes are hanging in all the doorways as I write this! But all in all, it is cosy and welcoming.

I have been playing with my newest craft ~ needle felting! What FUN! I have sculpting a little grey kitten and made both Vester and CJ a customized felted stocking. I will be making a sheepskin lined house for Pearl, the ferret, next =) and will decorate it too! haha ~ she may not notice, but I can't help it, anything that can be felted ~ will be felted for a while!

I finished the Yule Incense ~ by far my best batch yet ~ and I made over a gallon this time so there should be plenty for all.

Hauk, CJ and I went to Tina and Ed's for Yule last weekend, we just missed the snow hitting there in Hesperia by a day (whew!) We had a wonderful time and I am voting for Tina as the #1 Asatru Cook!! They had a wonderful place filled with all my favorite things ~ Books (LOTS OF BOOKS) nic naks (beautiful things!) rocks, crystals, and a pond to soothe the soul ~ filled with goldfish and Koi. What great folks!

I have emptied my main spinning wheel in preparation for Mother's Night, and will have all the others done by then in hopes that Mother Holle will bless our hearth for another year. I will probably go nuts having everything done for the 12 days ~ no spinning... no weaving... ARRRRGGH! But I am sure there will be lots of laundry and dishes to keep me out of trouble =P

Humm, maybe I can do some weaving on my lap loom and finish before the 20th.... Muuuuaaahhhaa!!

12 Days of Christmas in India (messy HTML but it works)

willowwolfe — Thu, 11 Dec 2008 18:04:33 GMT

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The Gods gave Rock and Roll to YOU!

willowwolfe — Wed, 10 Dec 2008 19:02:53 GMT

Can you feel the mist?

willowwolfe — Tue, 09 Dec 2008 02:54:38 GMT

Is the message in the words or the music?

willowwolfe — Tue, 09 Dec 2008 02:44:47 GMT

We were talking-about the space between us all
And the people-who hide themselves behind a wall of illusion
Never glimpse the truth-then it's far too late-when they pass away.
We were talking-about the love we all could share-when we find it
To try our best to hold it there-with our love
With our love-we could save the world-if they only knew.
Try to realize it's all within yourself
No-one else can make you change
And to see you're really only very small,
And life flows ON within you and without you.
We were talking-about the love that's gone so cold and the people,
Who gain the world and lose their soul-
They don't know-they can't see-are you one of them?
When you've seen beyond yourself-then you may find, peace of mind,
Is waiting there-
And the time will come when you see
we're all one, and life flows on within you and without you.

The cure for penis envy

willowwolfe — Mon, 08 Dec 2008 21:39:00 GMT

If I had a party and it incorporated games like THIS one ~ would YOU come? haha!

My newest craft...

willowwolfe — Mon, 08 Dec 2008 02:47:08 GMT

This is great for me as I wash, card, and dye my own wool. I can weave a bag, create a design and felt it right onto the bag! Or, I can even do a type of tapestry that is all handmade felt with the design elements in needle felting!! Woot ~ cant wait!

For the Spinner who has everything!

willowwolfe — Wed, 26 Nov 2008 19:09:15 GMT

Not your average Asatru questionaire

willowwolfe — Wed, 26 Nov 2008 03:15:55 GMT

Let the Asatru world hear your experience.

Your story counts!

Your spirituality and beliefs are valuable to us all!

My questions cover a wide range of information about Asatru, but it wouldn’t exist without you!

Voices of Asatru Women

Request for Asatru women to participate in an interview process for historical research:

The reason for this study is to create an ethnographic record.

My intention is to create a record from the interviews of modern American Asatru women, which will be accumulated and analyzed for the purpose of giving You more of a voice in heathen society, and the materials for a current history in modern pagan culture. I would like to inquire about Asatru women’s thoughts, reflections, and views on the Asatru religion; its mythology, practices, inspiration, and views of the Norse Goddesses. I will ask the women of Asatru, how these elements are applied and lived in modern American society, within the context of the Asatru religion.

Steffanie Snyder

Research Historian/ Union Institute and University/MA Final Document

This research project is designed to collect information about the belief structures of Asatru with regards to deity, and ritual, and to address the presence of religious devotion in the daily lives of modern American Asatru women. The interview questions for this research project are designed to develop findings about the mythology of Asatru, central practices in Asatru ritual, and central, modern, pagan or heathen themes. This project will also include questions concerning practice (if any) of esoteric behaviors such as “runic” divination, and, or the practice of Seithr magic.

Please talk to me, email me, or write me, about being interviewed. All Asatru women above the age of 18 are welcome to participate. Your input is interesting and vital, and it will give balance and continuity to the evolution of Asatru beliefs.

Please contact: Steffanie Snyder
916-415-0986, Cell # 530-575-8325

P.O. Box 202, Penryn, CA 95663 email: rowan_98@yahoo.com

Meme- liberated from Hauk who got it from Friggasgirl

willowwolfe — Mon, 24 Nov 2008 02:16:58 GMT

1. Do you like blue cheese? Sometimes

2. Do you own a gun? Yes, quite a few

3. What flavor of Kool Aid was your favorite as a kid? Fruit Punch

4. Do you get nervous before doctor appointments? Not since I got my tubes tied.

5. What do you think of hot dogs? I prefer corndogs, as long as I dont think about what is in them!

6. Favorite Christmas movie? The Grinch

7. What do you prefer to drink in the morning? Latte

8. Can you do push-ups? Why would I WANT to?

9. What is your favorite piece of jewelry? My wedding ring ~ and Valknut ~ and Thorshammer (Thanks Hauk) and my amber bracelet, and my silver dolphin,,, and all the sparkly stuff!

10. Favorite hobby? If hobby means things you dont make money at ~ Soap Crafting and Spinning

11. Do you have A.D.D.? I did before I was cured by pain

12, What trait you hate about yourself? Hate? nothing, but I dont like my tendancy to isolate myself

13. Middle name? Renee

14. Name 3 thoughts at this exact moment. Headache, legs hurt (I fell down while camping) pizza on the way...

15. Name 3 drinks you drink regularly.Iced Tea, Diet Coke, Latte

16. Current worry at the moment.That I might have injured my back further from my crash and burn.

17. Current hate right now. The IRS

18. Favorite place to be? The woods, the beach at night, my bed

19. How did you bring in the New Year? last year? Probably sleeping, I am getting old.

20. Where would you like to go on vacation? Iceland.

21. Name three people who WILL complete this? Maybe Lisa, Nan ~ if she has time... And ?

22. Do you own slippers? Yep

23. What shirt are you wearing? Not ~ I am wearing a dress

24. Do you like sleeping on satin sheets? I prefer Egyptian Cotton 700TC, but satin will do in the summer

25. Can you whistle? Yes, but it is not pretty

26. Favorite colors? Green, Burgundy, Black

27. Would you be a pirate? Not hardly! I would rather be a Viking and earn glory than be an outlaw

28. What songs do you sing in the shower? I dont.

29. Favorite girl's name? Willow

30. Favorite boy's name? Eric

31. What's in your pocket right now? No pockets

32. Last thing that made you laugh? Penny Puppy.

33. Best bed sheets as a child? The white ones with eyelet lace

34. Worst injury you've ever had? Skidding on my knees on the blacktop and getting the rocks scrubbed out in surgery.

35. Do you love where you live? YES!

36. How many TVs do you have in your house? One, I dont believe in TVs in the bedroom

37. Who is your loudest friend? CJ ~haha!

38. How many dogs or cats do you have? Penny (1 dog) Omen, Tattletale, Sunshine (3 cats) and a fish.

39. Does someone have a crush on you? He'd better!

40. Who is your favorite author? Anne Rice

41. What is your favorite candy? Hershey's Chocolate bar ~ plain?

42. Favorite Sports Team? I prefer racing and boxing ~ not team sports.

43. Do you like your job? Living is my job ~ it beats getting fired!

44. If you could go anywhere in the world, where would you go? Iceland and Ireland

45. Where did you go on your last vacation? Out of state? Reno Nevada.

What do YOU believe in...

willowwolfe — Mon, 17 Nov 2008 18:54:50 GMT